User talk:Rethliopuks/存档 1

本頁是以往討論的存檔。請勿編輯本頁。若您想發起新討論或重啟現有討論，請在當前討論頁進行。

您好，Rethliopuks！欢迎加入维基百科！

感謝您對維基百科的興趣與貢獻，希望您會喜歡這裡。除了歡迎辭以外，也請您了解以下重要文章：

政策五大支柱百科、中立、开放、互重、勇於创新	GNU 版權問題解答貢獻內容必须是您所著或獲得授權、并同意在CC-by-sa-3.0和GFDL條款下發布	手冊使用指南安全访问 / 測試編輯 / 如何编辑使用手册 / 繁简处理 / 寫個好條目
問號有问题？請到互助客栈询问，或在我的对话页提出。别忘記：討論後要簽名，方式之一是留下4個波浪紋「 ~~~~ 」。 If you have any questions about the Chinese Wikipedia, please leave a message here. Thank you for visiting!

閱讀新手应该注意的七种常见错误、理解維基百科的立場與常見注意事項。
有任何编辑上的问题？请试试IRC即时讨论。也可在下面加入「{{Helpme}}」，其他维基人见到后就会来提供帮助。
不知道有甚麼可写？条目请求、最多语言版本的待撰条目、缺少的传统百科全书条目和首页的缺失条目中列出了许多维基百科目前还没有的条目，欢迎您来撰寫！
想創建條目？到條目創建請求提交你的條目，維基人很樂意幫助。
希望您能享受共同编写百科的樂趣，成为一名充實的维基百科人。

我是欢迎您的维基人：Jack Tao(留言) 2010年6月27日 (日) 06:49 (UTC)

About the page“希臘字母” in Chinese Wikipedia.

最新留言：在14年前发布12条留言2人参与讨论

Please check these pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet (page "Greek alphabet" in English Wikipedia)

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C_%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%86%CE%AC%CE%B2%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%BF (page "Greek alphabet" in Greek Wikipedia)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_grec (page"Greek alphabet" in French Wikipedia)

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B7%E3%82%A2%E6%96%87%E5%AD%97 (page"Greek alphabet" in Japanese Wikipedia)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griechisches_Alphabet (page "Greek alphabet" in German wikipedia)

Thanks. Rethliopuks (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 15:12 (UTC)

Foreign western, but not eastern wikis are bad - current 希腊字母 is based on verifiable external sources:

http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt - all archaic "GREEK LETTER" characters are included and all their properties are derived from it.
Turkish Wikipedia serves as source of modern spelling.

You are breaking wikilink consensus established by admin User:Symplectopedia, so please stop or you will be blocked by administrators if you continue. I revert on behalf of Chinese administrators. ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 15:13 (UTC) ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 15:13 (UTC)

For your first point: Yes, one or two of them may be wrong, so I checked several languages (such as Fr/Eng/Jpn/Deu), and for the safety, I checked GREEK Wiki (it is their "mother alphabets"). They all show things same or similar with what I said. So, I could believe that I am right.

But in fact, the main reason is...

For your second point: I've studied for Greek for a period of time, so I trust what I studied is correct. In fact, I am now suspecting that why you only trust Turkish Wikipedia, and why you believe western wiki (such as English and Greek) are bad?

In my opinion, the source of modern spelling should differ from truth. If you don't believe things from (all Greece people) and (foreigners who studied or are now studying Greek), you should believe things from English wiki and Greek wiki. If you don't trust Western wikis at all, you should believe what Japanese wiki at least - in this problem. In fact, all the person or wiki I've mentioned will gve you the same as, or just a little different from my opinion.

I don't know if I made it clear. Another thing, it seems that the man you mentioned is not a real admin yet.Rethliopuks (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:01 (UTC)

I don't believe Wikipedias, I only believe Unicode, because bunch of classicists already gave me quantum-blurred values of Greek letter phonetic values, while http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt gives me strict singular values of classical values of Greek letter phonetic values, derived from first letter of each Greek letter name placed in http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:10 (UTC)

Uh, interesting. IS "http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunan_alfabesi" THE TURKISH VERSION? It shows the same things as I said! There is little difference between this wiki and Eng/Fra/Deu/Jpn/Greek wiki! Rethliopuks (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:11 (UTC)

It only served as modern spelling hint, like spelling of names in this template, while all sound values I derived from initial letters of Greek letter names in http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt primary source, like A as Alpha, etc... Note that http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt is only source that covers all archaic letters and their values at once, which are present in:

File:Greek Alphabet Unicode.png

at once. All other sources are only subsets of http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt . ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:23 (UTC)

ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:18 (UTC)

But these two files, neither of them shows the pronunciation and transliteration, aren't it? Both of them is just lists.Rethliopuks (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:32 (UTC)

I agree the existence of these Greek alphabets and their Unicode codes. I just think your "pronunciation (present)" and "transliteration" partly are wrong. Rethliopuks (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 16:41 (UTC)

Even if these lists do not provide pronunciation/transliteration directly, they provide it indirectly, as follows:

Alpha

Beta

Gamma

Delta

Epsilon

Digamma

Stigma

Zeta

Heta

Eta

Theta

Iota

Yot

Kappa

Lamda

Mu

Nu

Xi

Omicron

Pi

San

Koppa

Rho

Sigma

Tau

Upsilon

Phi

Chi

Psi

Omega

Sampi

Sho

where both pronunciation and transliteration is provided from primary bold initial letter and breathing (h) / hissing (s) secondary bold letter when applicable. Note that Xi hides K initial and s hissing inside X initial, but it is spelled as Xi in Unicode. Even Wau spelling is derived from Unicode "COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER OLD NUBIAN WAU" inside Greek+Coptic range of blocks. The same principle was reapplied to Turkish-derived modern Greek letter names. As you see, all is now as simple as possible, without uncertainity overhead, that formerly was provided by existence of several alternative phonetic/graphemic values for the same letter. Simply, we now have 1:1 correspondence, backed by singular verifiable source like http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt . ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 17:02 (UTC)

Well, if you want to explain them by their NAME, their names are now pronounced as:

alfa

vita

ɣamma

ðelta

epsilon

zita

ita

θita

iota

kappa

lamða

mi

ni

ksi

omikɾon

pi

ɾo

siɣma

tau

ipsilon

fi

xi

psi

omeɣa

"x" is “清軟齶擦音/清软颚擦音（Voiceless velar fricative）”，not "ks".

In Greek, when "x" "k" "ɣ" "g" is behind /i/ or /e/, they become "ç" "c" "ʝ" "ɟ".

also……“According to en:WP:VER>en:WP:VER#Wikipedia_and_sources_that_mirror_or_use_it one wiki cannot be used as source for another wiki at least in serious matters like phonetic value definitions, etc... - only direct basing of text on external sources is allowed. Rethliopuks (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 17:03 (UTC)

I of course wanted to explain all by classic names as they are in Unicode, to recover classic graphemic and phonemic values, because they are less redundant than modern versions, and because they are more unambiguous at all. ريال (留言) 2010年7月6日 (二) 19:09 (UTC)