討論:卡雷凡橋

吐麥拿的正名

條目內文：

吐麥拿單孔石橋，根據吉尼斯世界記錄的記載，是世界上目前所知仍保存並在使用最古老橋梁，該橋位於今土耳其境內的伊士麥，橫跨海爾斯河，約建於公元前850年，是一個拱橋及石橋。

我無法找到「吐麥拿單孔石橋」和「海爾斯河」的位置及英文名稱，倒找到以下幾項資料

8000 year- old İzmir, having a history dated back neolithic age, is one of the unique cities of the world with its historical treasures. The city acquired its old name from an Amazon Queen called "Smyrna. Izmir, which had been a host town to many civilizations during history; owns historical traces of great civilizations and one of the seven wonders of the world (Artemision-Ephesus), Agora from Roman times, and the known oldest bridge in the world which is registered in Guinness Records Book.

摘自：http://www.ege.edu.tr/en/detay.php?SayfaID=351&cat=details

"the known oldest bridge in the world which is registered in Guinness Records Book"看來的確是在伊士麥(İzmir)

- The Stone Bridge of Adana (Turkish: Task鰌r? which spans the Seyhan River. This bridge was originally built during the reign of the Roman Emperor Hadrian in the 2nd century AD, but has been damaged by earthquakes many times over the centuries, and repaired - including during the reign of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian I in the 6th century, the Umayyad caliph al-Walid II during the 7th century, and the caliph al-Mu'tasim during the 8th century. As a result, only 14 of the original 21 arches remain, but nevertheless, the bridge is the oldest bridge in the world which is still in use today.

按"the bridge is the oldest bridge in the world which is still in use today"這句看來，的確像是在談條目裡所提到的橋，但位置（İzmir→Adana）和建築時期卻不同？@_@

During the spring this park is an absolutely delightful place to take a picnic lunch and then enjoy a boat trip on the Sehan River. To the South is the Roman Bridge, the oldest bridge in the world in continuous usage. This region has been a crossroads for the silk trade for millenia. There are several castles all within a few hours of the city.

摘自：http://www.globosapiens.net/travel-information/Adana-1009.html

又是"the oldest bridge in the world in continuous usage"，河名叫"Sehan River"（疑是"Seyhan River"的字誤），讀音不像「海爾斯河」。橋名只簡單稱為"Roman Bridge"，看不出跟「吐麥拿」的關係。

我還找過"Taskopru bridge"，不過Taskopru跟İzmir位置不同。

會不會是條目內的資料混淆了些不同的資料在內？—Xtctjames (留言) 2008年1月16日 (三) 15:06 (UTC)

在[1]找到："The oldest surviving datable bridge in the world is a slab stone single-arch bridge over the River Meles in Izmir (formerly Smyrna) Turkey, which dates from c. 850 B.C."，不過橋名是否叫「吐麥拿」存疑。 --Mewaqua 2008年1月27日 (日) 17:36 (UTC)

吐麥拿應是「士麥拿」（Smyrna，位於今伊士麥的古城及古文明）之誤，我先作了移動，但這是否是它的正式名稱就不是很確定了。—ffaarr (talk) 2008年1月28日 (一) 01:57 (UTC)

兩位的幫忙，讓調查突破了瓶頸，感謝！^_^

又找到一些可能有用的資料，先裱起來

土耳其西部城市。全國第三大城市和最大港口之一。位於愛琴海犬牙交錯的海岸邊不受風雨襲擊的伊士麥灣的頂端。今城有廣闊林蔭道和現代化樓房，始建於1924年。大部分在環海灣東端的克孜勒古盧河(Kizilcullu, 古稱梅勒斯〔Meles〕)三角洲小平原以及其南面的高地和山脊上。橫跨伊士麥灣的卡爾舍亞 ...

摘自：http://wordpedia.eb.com/tbol/article?i=037699&db=big5

Bridge Trivia Oldest Bridge in the world still in use. Dating back to 850 B.C., the slab stone single–arch bridge spans the River Meles in Izmir, Turkey.

摘自：http://www.clemson.edu/t3s/newsletters/pdffiles/Winter2003.pdf

Southeast of the Culture Park in Izmir to the east of Basmahane Station, the Kemer Bridge crosses the small River Melez (the ancient Meles), a modern structure on Greek and Roman foundations.

摘自：http://www.planetware.com/izmir/caravan-bridge-tr-iz-izcb.htm

這橋的英文名稱可能叫Smyrna slab stone single-arch bridge或者Smyrna masonry arch bridge吧。—Xtctjames (留言) 2008年1月29日 (二) 14:41 (UTC)

應該是土麥拿單孔石橋，資料參考於河北人民出版社的《青年知識手冊·世界之最》。「土」作「吐」是筆誤，只是一直沒有發現。在這裡對我的失誤表示深深的歉意。—彭鵬 (留言) 2008年1月29日 (二) 15:43 (UTC)

彭先生千萬別太客氣，小弟尋根究底只為追尋知識，絕對沒有怪罪之心（小弟也經常有失誤:P）。況且接下來，我們還有很多積極而有意義的攷證工夫可以做，希望大家可以繼續協助，共同努力^_^（詳見下文↓）—Xtctjames (留言) 2008年1月30日 (三) 05:27 (UTC)

我看英文稱呼是Caravan Bridge[2]，沒有Smyrna slab stone single-arch bridge這種中文轉翻英文的稱呼，建議條目中文名也遵從英文改為卡雷凡橋。--Outlookxp（留言） 2013年6月24日 (一) 07:45 (UTC)

橋的座標、哪條比較老？

目前尚待解決的問題有……

1. 該橋的座標（我整天用Google Earth在土耳其上空飛來飛去:P）
2. 該橋跟Stone Bridge (Adana)比較，那麼哪條才是「現在仍然使用中的位於土耳其的現存世上最古老的石橋」？

順道裱起一些昨晚看到的資料：

850BC: First arched bridge built in Smyrna, Turkey.

摘自：http://www.seafriends.org.nz/books/mantime.htm

Information: Oldest preserved (?) arch bridge

Bridge: Meles Bridge

Type of bridge: Stone arch

Country: Turkey

Year of completion: app. 850 B.C

摘自：http://www.sbi.se/uploaded/dokument/files/Steel%20Bridges%20by%20SBI_ver3.03.pdf 的 P.2

The oldest surviving masonry arch bridge is at Smyrna, in Turkey. It was built around 900 BC.

摘自：http://bdml.stanford.edu/twiki/bin/view/Brunelleschi/ArchDomeConstruction

The oldest surviving datable bridge in the world is a slab stone single-arch bridge over the River Meles in Izmir (formerly Smyrna) Turkey, which dates from c. 850 B.C. [ref 4]

References 4. The Guiness Book of World Records, April 1994

摘自：http://www.tyeeconsulting.com/guidelines.html

這條橋具有這樣的歷史地位，它的圖和座標卻如此難找，頗匪夷所思

我昨晚開始試圖從搜尋Smyrna或İzmir的地圖入手，配合Google Earth互相參照去找，找了一整晚，但暫無所獲（慘的是在互助客棧裡求助時，還被沒幫忙的人指我這是動口不動手、假腥做態、興風作浪呢...-_-）。—Xtctjames (留言) 2008年1月30日 (三) 05:22 (UTC)